Any good resources for sentence structure?

Latest post Mon, Mar 7 2011 6:29 by éilis2. 6 replies.
  • Tue, Feb 8 2011 16:06

    • tentaclezoom
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    Any good resources for sentence structure?

    I'm now about six months into my study of Irish and while my vocabulary is growing and growing, I am still having amazing difficulty forming basic sentences. I have all these words and no idea how to use them! All the resources in my bookmarks folder are focused solely on grammar and vocabularly, with very little on how to form sentences with that grammar. As practice I've been trying to keep a journal in Irish, but I hit a wall when it comes to writing anything more than "X is Y" or "I am __" and the journal isn't helping me progress as much as I'd like. I feel stuck in the rut of using only what I am 100% positive of. Since I'm teaching myself the language, I'm afraid that using bad sentence structure (and making wild guesses) will only hurt me in the future if my practices consists of reinforcing incorrect sentence forms. With how different Irish is from English, it is difficult to assume anything when it comes to structure.

    Does anyone have any links that might help me out?

    I did recieve the Buntús Cainte course for Christmas, but even that is proving more difficult than I thought. It seems I memorize the exact sentences/phrases used as examples in the book, but then I'm afraid to branch out and use those forms to create my own sentences. I'm also quite intimated by verbs; most of my vocabularly is nouns, and that makes it difficult to talk about what's going on with those nouns.

    I am trying to be patient with my language learning, but same days I am more patient than others. Confused

     

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  • Thu, Feb 10 2011 11:44 In reply to

    • michelle
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    Re: Any good resources for sentence structure?

    Know how you feel ;)

    What about you post a couple of sentences here, and we can work on them? I want to start a learner's blog associated with the online Buntús Cainte course when we get it out. I feel the book and course are fantastic at giving you structures - but it would be great at getting 'homework' - a bit like the Progress in Irish course - where you're challenged to make a sentence.

    Is fearr dhá theanga ná ceann amháin…

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  • Thu, Feb 10 2011 17:23 In reply to

    • tentaclezoom
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    Re: Any good resources for sentence structure?

    Go raibh maith agat, Michelle. :) I don't have any time at the moment, but I will post some of my uncertainities soon. The learner's blog sounds like a great idea and I would definitely follow it once it gets off the ground!

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  • Wed, Feb 16 2011 23:01 In reply to

    • Princess L
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    Re: Any good resources for sentence structure?

    Like you, I'm teaching myself Irish and I take any free time to write down something in a notebook in Irish. For me, it's usually just any one thought or two that comes to mind, which I think is a good exercise. Whether it's simply "I'm going out today" or silly, like "Oh no, my coffee is cold!" or even describing the outfit I'm wearing. My advice would be don't put too much pressure on yourself to write a journal entry that's as detailed as one you might write in English; and don't put too much pressure on yourself to get it perfect. Write any thought at all (even just one), and if you're unsure of your sentence form, do what you can and look up on it later. That's what I do. Sometimes I get it horribly wrong --with grammar and/or spelling-- but that's not a bad thing; because I looked it up right away, I was able correct myself. Let yourself make mistakes (even wild guesses) and then look them up after that to see if it's formed properly so you can correct it if it's not. You might have gotten it right; or you might have found that you made such a silly mistake that even you can laugh about it! You didn't start out speaking fluent, grammatically correct English, right? You made mistakes very early on, but you were corrected along the way and now your communication is perfect. Smile

    EireFirst.com has lessons and information on verb forms, sentence structure, and the nature of masculine and feminine nouns which has certainly helped me. The lessons are written out in very clean, organized paragraphs and tables. I like to print out the lessons and put them in a binder to study, teaming them up with my Talk Irish sound files on my iPod. I owe a lot of my sentence structure knowledge to this fabbity fab website as well. I download all of the Focal an Lae and then edit the Properties of each file, separating them into Albums (subjects) and adding the sentences into the "Lyrics" section of the Summary (I can explain this in screen shots if you like). Then I add them to my iPod where they are organized by their Album name (Around the House, Seasons, Holidays, etc.). When I play them on my iPod, I click the center button 3 times to view the "lyrics" so I can see the Irish as it's spoken and the English translation. Actually studying the set up of Irish sentences provided can give you the idea of how to form sentences on your own. I personally looked for patterns and analyzed the sentences, and then I searched for confirmation on my "discoveries" afterward. I really do recommend EireFirst.com, but please don't overwhelm yourself with several lessons at a time! I print out a lesson and study it. When I feel I've already grasped it enough (whether it be 3 days or 3 weeks), I print out the next lesson, but I keep every single one to refer back to later should I forget or become unsure of something.

    You say you're afraid to branch out using the forms that you're given as examples in your Irish book. Why is that? That's what they're for! Big Smile Those sentences are given to you to show you how to convey that kind of statement. I think all you need is more self-confidence and less pressure on yourself. Don't be afraid to experiment and have fun practicing those forms. Use the examples as a template, and replace the words with others.

    For instance, the Talk Irish example sentence:
    "Cuir an sceanra ar an tábla."
    Put the cutlery on the table.

    Try changing the subject, from cutlery to a pen:
    "Cuir an peann ar an tábla."
    Put the pen on the table.

    Now try changing the last noun, from a table to a book:
    "Cuir an peann ar an leabhar."
    Put the pen on the book.

    Let's change the verb now, from "put" to "throw":
    "Caith an peann ar an leabhar."
    Throw the pen on the book.

    Yes, it's a pointless statement (haha, why throw a pen on a book?) but that's an example of how easy it is to form your own sentence when given a simple example. Wink

    Watching Aifric on the TG4 website has also helped my Irish tremendously with vocabulary, grammar, and sentence structure. It's a comedy teen programme so it's easy to pay attention to and the episodes are short so it's not too overwhelming. I believe it's in Connacht dialect, and I'm learning Ulster on Talk Irish, but it isn't difficult for me to understand their actual speech (not talking about the subtitles here) when they're saying something I already know (it's like how I speak with a New York accent, but I can understand someone from Boston). If I hear a word I recognize, I will even rewind the scene over and over to hear how the word or phrase is used in the sentence if I'm not too familiar with the real usage. I always have http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary up at the same time to look up any words I'm curious about that I don't recognize (using English to Irish). I don't look up every single word I don't know, because that would be very overwhelming.

    I would love to help with sentence structure and verb usage. Geeked I am a grammar geek when it comes to English, and I have found that I am not that different with learning Irish grammar and sentence structure. I've found that Irish sentence structure itself really is not as difficult or unpredictable as it looks at first and I found it is not as different from English as most people say it is (yes, it is different, but it's not impossible). You really have to let yourself make mistakes and not be afraid to take chances so you can grow. You won't get into any bad habits as long as you correct yourself right away; you seem to really care about how well you do.  If you'd like someone to buddy up/learn with, you can private message me any time. I would love to share my findings with another self-taught learner, especially verb usage. I've been studying consistently for about the same amount of time as you have (5 or 6 months and about 3 years very inconsistently before that) and I've really become passionate about it.

     

    *I edited this post after I reread your post and saw that you had the resources to see examples of sentences, so I crossed out my input so you could read it but ignore it (so sorry about that!). Then I wrote the paragraph of examples. >.<

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  • Thu, Feb 17 2011 16:07 In reply to

    • tentaclezoom
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    Re: Any good resources for sentence structure?

     

    Princess L:
    You say you're afraid to branch out using the forms that you're given as examples in your Irish book. Why is that? That's what they're for! Big Smile Those sentences are given to you to show you how to convey that kind of statement. I think all you need is more self-confidence and less pressure on yourself. Don't be afraid to experiment and have fun practicing those forms. Use the examples as a template, and replace the words with others.

    I know I'm being silly not to use the structures they give me, and I discovered today why that is - I'm just really paranoid about which form of the nouns/verbs I am using. I will write a sentence that is 90% grammatically correct, but then worry "Should I have used fear, or fir, or bhfear, or fhear?" I know it's not really a big deal to be so precise this early, but I am a perfectionist! I have read several times that "You don't learn languages, you get USED to languages" and this really rings true to me - sometimes the harder I try to make something click the more it resists, and then one day, after doing nothing special, it makes perfect sense. I have to remember that sometimes our brains need time to adjust more than they need to be ruthlessly beaten with the grammar stick. :D

    And I actually do the same thing as you with TG4. I love Aifric, as well as Ros na Rún, the news, and even the kids programs like Olivia and Mr. Men. Some of the 10-20 minute programs take me an hour because I spend a lot of time re-listening to portions and trying to straighten them out in my head, or using online translators to get the gist of things (however grammatically incorrect). New vocab also sticks so much better when learned in context.

    I'm beginning to develop my own methods of learning (and realizing how important this is in language learning!) because traditional methods are difficult for me. My thinking is far more abstract than linear, so step-by-step instructions and doing things in 'proper order' is extremely difficult for me. I do much better jumping around in the middle of an idea and collecting the parts that seem important/reoccuring. Several times I've tried to do the Buntús Cainte course at the one-lesson-a-day level and several times failed....yet I realized that if I hop around the lessons, going from lesson 5 to lesson 38 to lesson 17, I retain much more of what I learn and oddly enough, it makes more sense.

    The other thing that works well for my style of learning is printing out news articles/blogs written as Gaeilge, then attempting to make sense of them using only my dictionary and an online translator. I know there is always that margin of error doing this, but I just started doing it and can't believe how immensely it helps. More of the vocab sticks because it is remembered in context and it gives me a natural feel for eclipse/lenition. The sentence structures I do know are being reinforced, while beginning to intuitively grasp the ones I am unfamiliar with. Until I started doing this, using any form of "go bhfuil" was daunting. After only a week, I have found myself able to use it in many situations. I just find it much easier to look at the language as a whole and then attack from all sides. Learning step-by-step is what leaves me feeling stiff.

    I may have to take you up on your offer, too! Verbs are one of those things I avoid because I despise conjugation drills and things of that sort. It never seems to stick. (Though I warn you, I often take a while to respond - total absentminded professor here. Confused) And thanksfor all your suggestions!

     

     

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  • Thu, Feb 17 2011 18:27 In reply to

    • Princess L
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    Re: Any good resources for sentence structure?

    tentaclezoom:
    sometimes the harder I try to make something click the more it resists, and then one day, after doing nothing special, it makes perfect sense.

    I can totally relate to that! One thing could make no sense to me whatsoever, and I have to stop to prevent brain explosion. Then maybe a day or two later (haha, or a week) I think, "OH! Duh! Why was that so difficult?"

     

    tentaclezoom:
    I'm beginning to develop my own methods of learning (and realizing how important this is in language learning!) because traditional methods are difficult for me. My thinking is far more abstract than linear, so step-by-step instructions and doing things in 'proper order' is extremely difficult for me. I do much better jumping around in the middle of an idea and collecting the parts that seem important/reoccuring. Several times I've tried to do the Buntús Cainte course at the one-lesson-a-day level and several times failed....yet I realized that if I hop around the lessons, going from lesson 5 to lesson 38 to lesson 17, I retain much more of what I learn and oddly enough, it makes more sense.

     

    That's an interesting method! I think I do something similar. I will more or less just skim across a lesson or essay that's beyond the level that I'm at, but if I study it too intently I feel my brain about to explode! I try to take things a step at a time for the most part, though, so I guess I would definitely be one of the more linear thinkers.

     

    tentaclezoom:
    The other thing that works well for my style of learning is printing out news articles/blogs written as Gaeilge, then attempting to make sense of them using only my dictionary and an online translator. I know there is always that margin of error doing this, but I just started doing it and can't believe how immensely it helps.

    Awesome! I used to do that with my Japanese (I've been so absorbed in Irish lately that I've been neglecting it, though), except with song lyrics. I listen to a lot of Japanese bands, so I would find Romanized lyrics of my favorite songs and then translate them to English using an online dictionary and my grammar books. It's so much easier to remember things and relate to them that way, isn't it? I think I will try that with Gaeilge. Do you recommend any particular news sites, etc.? Oh, I wish could find some bands that use a lot of Gaeilge to listen to, but I always seem to come up empty after a long and tiring Google search.

     

    tentaclezoom:
    I may have to take you up on your offer, too! Verbs are one of those things I avoid because I despise conjugation drills and things of that sort. It never seems to stick. (Though I warn you, I often take a while to respond - total absentminded professor here. Confused)

     

    Please do, any time! I have no one to practice or talk with at all. My mom started learning with me 3 years ago, but she quit after a week. Stick out tongue

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  • Mon, Mar 7 2011 6:29 In reply to

    • éilis2
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    Re: Any good resources for sentence structure?

    Dia Daoine, a Chairde,

    Is mise Éilis.  Conas atá sibh?  Tá mé ag foghlaim na Gaeilge ar mo fhéin, freisin.  I would love to talk/study with you if you're still looking for others to learn with.  I've been learning for about four months but I'm also a full time grad student, and can't see so I've had to find online/ audio ways to learn.  So you two might be a bit a head of me, but maybe that's all right with you?  I guess I should say that I don't know too many verbs especially when it comes to what I can pronounce and not just read.  Ach, a bheith ag duirt seo, tá mé ag foghlaim beagáinín gach lá agus tá ag spraoi agam.  ...and I'm not sure how I got that sentence to work but I did.  I worry I get way too experimental and should be more linear.  Níl a fhios agam.

     

    Princess L, I seem to have the opposite problem... I play around with sentence structures all the time and am wrong at least slightly all the time.  I'm a grammar nerd like you and if I see a verb structure in a table I can memorize it right away.  I sometimes write five or six sentences using a particular form with the vocabulary I'm learning and then see if I'm right.  I'm usually sort of, mostly, or not entirely right.  But then, before looking up what I'm supposed to write, I mess around with the sentences again to see if I can figure out what to do differently myself.  I'm sure that if I could do a puzzle, I'd try to find a way for several of the pieces to fit together before ever looking at instructions.  Well in this case I do learn the rules, just try to see if they apply in different contexts.  I'm not sure if this is a productive way to go about things? 

     

    I was also wondering what anyone thinks about google translate?  I thought it was a really great resource a few months ago, but I'm now noticing it translates whatever you write as literally as possible which isn't helpful.  Occasionally it's shown me that I'm wrong when I'm not.  Have you had similar experiences?

     

    Pronounciation is probably hardest for me.  I use the Byki course a lot and the audio seems to always lack inflection.  I'm loving the audio I just discovered on this site--it actually sounds human (smile.)

     

    Bands that mostly sing songs in Gaeilge? I have lots of those if you want any mp3s.  Altan is really good, so are some of Orla Fallan's songs from her solo albums.  There are others as well, I'll have to look them up later--the ones I'm thinking of have really long names.

     

    Princess L, Thanks for all the links!

     

    Send me a message if you're still looking for others to learn with.

     

    Slán go fóill agus oíche mhaith,

    éilis

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