Proper names in Irish fairy tales

Dia duit! I'm quite new here, so forgive my ignorance if the question is stupid.

I study philology and my diploma thesis this year I'll be writing on the English-Ukrainian translation of proper names in English fairy tales. But I'd really love to add Irish tales as well. Only I'm not sure whether names there (like Guleesh, Gruagach Gaire, Morraha, Cu Cullin) need any translation. Do they have any meaning valuable for the plot or context? Could they be translated at all? Or have to be merely transliterated or transcribed?

Go raibh maith agat beforehand.

Slan go foil

Thanks a lot Seano!

All the names I take from Joseph Jacob's selected fairy tales (Wordswoth classics edition). Guleesh was a lad who saved king's daughter first from the unloved prince she was to marry and then from the sheehogues who were going to kidnap her for themselves. I agree that of the two it'd sooner mean "servant of Jesus" according to the context, but it seems like here it's insignificant.

On the contrary,Gruagach Gaire's name is most important, I gather, as it helps to make the character more vivid, more distinct.It makes sense trying to translate it.

Do I get it right  that in English translations such names are left untouched or are anglicised a bit (looking at the Morraha-Murchadh)rather than translated? 

Oh, there are still heaps and heaps of names I don't recognise. Especially those almost similar rhythmical pairs Hudden and Dudden, Munachar and Manachar.

p.s. Seano, where did you learn Ukrainian? (or rather Czech-Ukrainian=)

Hi Bess,

Yes, I think that's pretty much the case - generally the Irish names are only anglicised to make the spelling easier for English speakers. Leary is easier for an English speaker to read than Laoghaire, for example, especially when the readership has only started reading their own language! Munachar and Manachar sound quite Irish - munach (or murach) means "but for" as in Murach eisean ní bheinn anseo (But for him I wouldn't be here) and the word manach is the Irish for monk.

A famous story is the Children of Lir but very few people realise that it should be the children of Lear (pronounced Lar), because Lir is the genitive. If you give us a list of the names you are interested in, we'll see what we can do.

As for the Ukrainian, I have to admit I just Googled it, though a friend of ours from Canada was here last weekend and she's half Ukrainian, so there was a lot of talk of kovbasa and pyrohi (hope my spelling's correct) and her mother's family from Lviv. Good luck with your studies and keep the questions coming!

Seáno.

Still thanks for bothering to look up a Ukrainian phrase, really. The Ukrainian language has better positions here than Irish in Eire, but nonetheless it's greatly suppressed by Russian. So wonderful to know that someone, even so distant, cares.

I couldn't find any fairy tales in Irish, so I'll go on with those Jacob's names. Explain me, please, the usage of an (like in Shee an Gannon), de (Tuatha de Dannan, is it someway close to Spanish de?). Is M` (Fin M`Coul) a short for mac?  

Then, I guess, Fair, Brown and Trembling are translations. As well as Knockmany, Knockgrafton, Cape Clear (these are obviously toponyms). Any chance they are wrong ones?  

I'll top all these with Andrew Coffey, king Hugh Curucha of Tir Conal and be done.

Duzhe dyakuyu or Go raibh cead maith agat, you're of very much help. 

Hi Bess, Pryvit! 

Yes, but TalkIrish is all about respect for smaller cultures and languages, so looking up a bit of Ukrainian just seems like the natural thing to do (and I'm always happy to learn a couple of words of another language!)

Anyway, to answer the question about names, the word "an" is the definite article, so Shee an Gannon means the Fairy (or Fairy-mound, could be either) of the Gannon (which might be a place-name). I don't know what the original of the word Gannon is - it certainly isn't an Irish spelling.

Tuath Dé Danann is from the ancient Irish Book of Invasions. It means "The People of the Goddess Danu". Dé is related to the word Dia, which means God.

Fionn Mac Cumhaill was the hero of many Irish tales and this is anglicised lots of ways: as Fin M'Coul, or as Finn McCool, or as Fingal (as in Fingal's Cave).

Knockmany is an anglicised version of Cnoc mBáine and is in Tyrone. Cape Clear is Oileán Chléire in Irish and it is in Cork. I have never heard of Knockgrafton but again it is an anglicised version of some Irish original (or perhaps just a fictional name). 

Andrew Coffey is an ordinary English version of an Irish name. In Irish it would be Aindriú Ó Cofaigh or Aindriú Ó Cobhthaigh (in modern and older spelling). Coffey is a common name in Cork (some of my relatives were called Coffey) and also quite common among the Irish travelling people.  

King Hugh Curucha of Tir Conal apparently stands for Aodh Crochta (Hanged Hugh) and the Tir Conal is Tír Chonaill (the land of Conall) in the modern spelling, which is Donegal in the north west of Ireland.

Hope that's OK. By the way, your English is really good - you'll have to learn Irish next! All the best and Щасти вам! Seán. 

I'm working hard on my Irish! Now I'll see what I can find and interpret myself. Thanks again for your help. 

Dia duit to everyone!

As my thesis is moving on, the more and more questions appear. So I'm in great need of your help again. This time concerning a phrase from a fairy tale "the foot of Sliabh Charn". The translator into Russian decided to name it "the mount Sliv-Charn" (I transcribed the last part). But "sliabh" already means "mountain", doesn't it? And what to do with "charn"? There doesn't seem to exist a mount with such a name. Can it have any chance a relation to "carn" (cairn)?

Slan

Lisa

Hi Lisa, Привiт! Any questions you have, send them to us and we'll see what we can do. As for this one, it's easy enough. As you say, it is derived from the word carn, which means a heap or pile, but is often used for a commemorative pile of stones used as a grave-marker. These are often found in a conspicuous position on top of mountains. I think the mountain in question is Sliabh an Chairn, known in English as Carn Mountain. This is not far from us here, in the Mourne Mountains in County Down. Keep them coming!

I knew it, I kew it! Thanks=)

Maybe you could help me with some Cornish names as well? At least with their original, not anglicised forms, for I've looked everywhere and couldn't find any. I mean these well-known names of the giants Cormoran, Blunderbore, Thunderdell and Galligantua or Galligantus.

Lisa 

Hi Bess, Sorry, I could offer an opinion but it wouldn't be worth much! Cornish and Irish are very different and I don't know much about Cornish culture. Blunderbore and Thunderdell seem particularly English to me, and Brewer says that Cormoran is just a corruption of cormorant, because the cormorant is associated with greed as it swallowsits food whole. The only thing I could suggest is that you write to one of the Cornish Language organisations like Agan Tavas. Here's an email link - ray@agantavas.org. They may be able to help you with that. Seán.

I turned to a multilingual forum, hope someone could land me a hand with these giants. When (or if) I get an answer I can post it here, in case you're interested.

My two last questions so far. First, how Ballahadereen (Bealach an Doirín) is pronounced correctly? I'm slightly confused with the length and long vowels. And the same with, as far as I get it, the older and modern spelling: Na Gaibhlte and Sléibhte na gCoillte ("Mountains of the Forests", Galtee Mountains in English). Is the modern spelling used everywhere now?

Thanks for mentioning Brewer's dictionary, by the way, it helped me a lot=)

Hi, Yes, Brewer's is a wonderful book. It's a pity we have nothing like it in Irish. As for your questions, pronouncing it in a northern way, I would say BALLAKH A DURREEN, but I don't think that's the way it would usually be pronounced locally. I think ballakhaDREEN would be closer to it, with the stress at the end. As for the Galtees, the modern spelling is always used. In fact, I don't think anyone knows for certain if na gCoillte is the real origin of Galtee. Gaibhltí would be pronounced pretty much the same as the English Galtee.

Interesting..You know, recently I've dug up a very curious thing. Remember Lushmore, who helped the fairies better their song? Brewer says that "lushmore" or "foxglove" is also called "fairy thimble" in Ireland. And the root of the Ukrainian name of this plant is "thimble" as well! Only a suffix is added. Well, the flowers look somewhat like thimbles, but it's amazing how the assosiation worked for both languages, so different from one another.

I've checked ten times and still can't get it - in Goban Saor (sorry for the fada) - which word means "carpenter"? Seems like they both do!

Hi Bess, Yes, it would be interesting to compare all the names of plants and animals. I believe the Irish name for a ladybird/ladybug, Bóín Dé, means the same as the Russian word - little cow of God. Is that right, and is it similar in Ukrainian? The foxglove is called an lus mór in Irish (the big herb) or lus na mban sí (herb of the fairy women) or méaracán sí (fairy thimble). As for the Gobán Saor, I must confess I don't know much about the origin of the name. I always assumed that it came from "gob", which means mouth or beak in Irish. The word gobán does exist in modern Irish but it means a baby's dummy or pacifier. I looked online and also at Dinneen's dictionary. He regards Gobán as a popular version of Goibhne, the tutelary god of smithwork and related to the word for smith, gabha. This may be the case, but I do have a couple of problems with it. For one thing, why wouldn't Gobán have undergone the same sound changes as words like gabha, and ended up as Gobhán? The other problem is that the Gobán Saor is always associated with carpentry and never specifically with smithing. I wonder if anyone else has any thoughts on this, or if anyone has a copy of any books which might shed some light on it? Of the two words, Saor definitely means a freeman = a skilled worker, and a saor cloiche is a mason and a saor adhmaid is a carpenter. Gobán means a poor craftsman in modern Irish but I would assume that that comes from the Gobán Saor rather than the Gobán Saor taking his name from a word for a bad carpenter! I'll see if I can find anything else about this subject and get back to you.