The Irish Language - Grammar, Pronunciation, Games, Myths, Poetry and more

Re: Proper names in Irish fairy tales

seano — Wed, 23 Nov 2011 19:32:29 GMT

Hi Dale, Yes that's a very interesting story. I can add a few small details to it which people might find interesting.

One, according to tradition, the grave of Oisín is just outside the village of Cushendall in the Glens of Antrim.

Two, later in his life, Oisín was persuaded to spend three years with the fairy woman Niamh in the land under the sea. One day, he saw a broken spear floating in the water and remembered Fionn and the Fianna. So he asked Niamh to return to Ireland. She gave him a fairy horse and told him not to set foot on the ground. When he got to Ireland, he found that he had been away for three hundred years and that everything was changed. The people were small and weak. He saw a group of them struggling to move a stone and he leant down from his horse and pushed the stone away with one hand, but at that moment the saddle-strap broke and he fell to the ground. Immediately he became an old man. Later he met Saint Patrick and became a Christian. Hence the phrase for a lonely old person who has outlived his contemporaries Oisín i ndiaidh na Féinne (an Oisín after the Fianna).

Three, and this is perhaps the most interesting thing of all, this story is almost identical to a story told in Japan, where the central character is called Urashima Taro.

Irish mythology is a fascinating subject. Any other good stories out there?

Re: Proper names in Irish fairy tales

Dale D — Wed, 23 Nov 2011 19:16:19 GMT

Hi, Bess, I know this thread's been silent for quite a while, but I couldn't help but respond a little bit to your inquiry with a bit of trivia I've picked up regarding Irish folklore and legend.

Finn McCool (Fionn mac Cumhail) had a son who was also a member of the Fianna and became the subject of a couple of different stories in the Fenian cycle of mythology, most particularly the story of "Tír na nOg" (should be a fada over the capital O - sorry), or "The Land of Eternal Youth". His name was "Oisín" (pronounced Oh-sheen) and means "fawn" or "little deer".

Fionn mac Cumhail was hunting one day when he spied a doe and was ready to shoot her with an arrow. His hounds, who had once been human, recognized that the doe was also human, so Fionn spared her and brought her to his land. She told him she had been cursed by a druid and turned into a deer because she would not marry him. Once she set foot on Fionn's land, she returned to her original form, and they married. But the druid returned and changed her back into a deer, so she fled. Later, Fionn met their son, Oisín, who, being the son of a woman turned into a deer, was named "fawn", even though it doesn't give it the ring of a great warrior, but makes sense in the context of the story.

Don't know if this helps you any, but I thought it was a fun tale of how his name came to be.

Dale D.

Re: Proper names in Irish fairy tales

Bess — Tue, 31 May 2011 19:36:05 GMT

If anyone has any ideas on the meaning of Gobán Saor I'd be happy to hear them, though sadly I won't be able to include any more into my thesis. As I'm done with it. It's finally printed and handed in=) I decided merely to mention the assumed meaning of the name.

Thank you so much for your help, Seano, go raibh maith agat or дякую. My topic certainly wouldn't be that absorbing without the Irish names. In fact, I guess the Irish part is the only one deserving attention! Hope there'll be more=)

Re: Proper names in Irish fairy tales

Bess — Tue, 24 May 2011 18:36:34 GMT

Yes, that's absolutely correct. Bóín Dé would be "bozha korivka" in Ukrainian and "bozhya korovka" in Russian.

And there's another thing, connected neither with plants or incects=) "BabAy" (or "Babai") with the stress on the last vowel, in Ukrainian tradition is a mythical creature, an old man, with which parents scare their kids. Like if you won't be good, Babay will come and take you. Although they say it comes from a Turkish word, it reminded me of the Irish "babai".

"Free carpenter" - that's how Joseph Jacobs explained the name. He also added in the notes that it's "the Irish equivalent of Wayland Smith, and occurs in several place names in Ireland". I found in wiki (it's not that dependable, but I don't have anything better at hand at the moment) that Wayland Smith is known in Germanic and Old Norse mythology and Gobannus is a Gallo-Roman god of smithery. These may be confused, but when and how does carpetner appeared I've no idea=(

By the way, Jacobs changed the name into "Gobborn Seer" in the tale.

Re: Proper names in Irish fairy tales

seano — Tue, 24 May 2011 15:12:08 GMT

Hi Bess, Yes, it would be interesting to compare all the names of plants and animals. I believe the Irish name for a ladybird/ladybug, Bóín Dé, means the same as the Russian word - little cow of God. Is that right, and is it similar in Ukrainian? The foxglove is called an lus mór in Irish (the big herb) or lus na mban sí (herb of the fairy women) or méaracán sí (fairy thimble). As for the Gobán Saor, I must confess I don't know much about the origin of the name. I always assumed that it came from "gob", which means mouth or beak in Irish. The word gobán does exist in modern Irish but it means a baby's dummy or pacifier. I looked online and also at Dinneen's dictionary. He regards Gobán as a popular version of Goibhne, the tutelary god of smithwork and related to the word for smith, gabha. This may be the case, but I do have a couple of problems with it. For one thing, why wouldn't Gobán have undergone the same sound changes as words like gabha, and ended up as Gobhán? The other problem is that the Gobán Saor is always associated with carpentry and never specifically with smithing. I wonder if anyone else has any thoughts on this, or if anyone has a copy of any books which might shed some light on it? Of the two words, Saor definitely means a freeman = a skilled worker, and a saor cloiche is a mason and a saor adhmaid is a carpenter. Gobán means a poor craftsman in modern Irish but I would assume that that comes from the Gobán Saor rather than the Gobán Saor taking his name from a word for a bad carpenter! I'll see if I can find anything else about this subject and get back to you.

Re: Proper names in Irish fairy tales

Bess — Tue, 24 May 2011 11:06:46 GMT

Interesting..You know, recently I've dug up a very curious thing. Remember Lushmore, who helped the fairies better their song? Brewer says that "lushmore" or "foxglove" is also called "fairy thimble" in Ireland. And the root of the Ukrainian name of this plant is "thimble" as well! Only a suffix is added. Well, the flowers look somewhat like thimbles, but it's amazing how the assosiation worked for both languages, so different from one another.

I've checked ten times and still can't get it - in Goban Saor (sorry for the fada) - which word means "carpenter"? Seems like they both do!

Re: Proper names in Irish fairy tales

seano — Sun, 22 May 2011 21:41:21 GMT

Hi, Yes, Brewer's is a wonderful book. It's a pity we have nothing like it in Irish. As for your questions, pronouncing it in a northern way, I would say BALLAKH A DURREEN, but I don't think that's the way it would usually be pronounced locally. I think ballakhaDREEN would be closer to it, with the stress at the end. As for the Galtees, the modern spelling is always used. In fact, I don't think anyone knows for certain if na gCoillte is the real origin of Galtee. Gaibhltí would be pronounced pretty much the same as the English Galtee.

Re: Proper names in Irish fairy tales

Bess — Wed, 18 May 2011 19:24:16 GMT

I turned to a multilingual forum, hope someone could land me a hand with these giants. When (or if) I get an answer I can post it here, in case you're interested.

My two last questions so far. First, how Ballahadereen (Bealach an Doirín) is pronounced correctly? I'm slightly confused with the length and long vowels. And the same with, as far as I get it, the older and modern spelling: Na Gaibhlte and Sléibhte na gCoillte ("Mountains of the Forests", Galtee Mountains in English). Is the modern spelling used everywhere now?

Thanks for mentioning Brewer's dictionary, by the way, it helped me a lot=)

Re: Proper names in Irish fairy tales

seano — Mon, 16 May 2011 13:50:05 GMT

Hi Bess, Sorry, I could offer an opinion but it wouldn't be worth much! Cornish and Irish are very different and I don't know much about Cornish culture. Blunderbore and Thunderdell seem particularly English to me, and Brewer says that Cormoran is just a corruption of cormorant, because the cormorant is associated with greed as it swallowsits food whole. The only thing I could suggest is that you write to one of the Cornish Language organisations like Agan Tavas. Here's an email link - ray@agantavas.org. They may be able to help you with that. Seán.

Re: Proper names in Irish fairy tales

Bess — Sat, 14 May 2011 22:56:48 GMT

I knew it, I kew it! Thanks=)

Maybe you could help me with some Cornish names as well? At least with their original, not anglicised forms, for I've looked everywhere and couldn't find any. I mean these well-known names of the giants Cormoran, Blunderbore, Thunderdell and Galligantua or Galligantus.

Lisa

Re: Proper names in Irish fairy tales

seano — Thu, 12 May 2011 21:27:50 GMT

Hi Lisa, Привiт! Any questions you have, send them to us and we'll see what we can do. As for this one, it's easy enough. As you say, it is derived from the word carn, which means a heap or pile, but is often used for a commemorative pile of stones used as a grave-marker. These are often found in a conspicuous position on top of mountains. I think the mountain in question is Sliabh an Chairn, known in English as Carn Mountain. This is not far from us here, in the Mourne Mountains in County Down. Keep them coming!

Re: Proper names in Irish fairy tales

Bess — Thu, 12 May 2011 19:06:20 GMT

Dia duit to everyone!

As my thesis is moving on, the more and more questions appear. So I'm in great need of your help again. This time concerning a phrase from a fairy tale "the foot of Sliabh Charn". The translator into Russian decided to name it "the mount Sliv-Charn" (I transcribed the last part). But "sliabh" already means "mountain", doesn't it? And what to do with "charn"? There doesn't seem to exist a mount with such a name. Can it have any chance a relation to "carn" (cairn)?

Slan

Lisa

Re: Proper names in Irish fairy tales

Bess — Sat, 09 Oct 2010 06:05:13 GMT

I'm working hard on my Irish! Now I'll see what I can find and interpret myself. Thanks again for your help.

Re: Proper names in Irish fairy tales

seano — Fri, 08 Oct 2010 06:03:14 GMT

Hi Bess, Pryvit!

Yes, but TalkIrish is all about respect for smaller cultures and languages, so looking up a bit of Ukrainian just seems like the natural thing to do (and I'm always happy to learn a couple of words of another language!)

Anyway, to answer the question about names, the word "an" is the definite article, so Shee an Gannon means the Fairy (or Fairy-mound, could be either) of the Gannon (which might be a place-name). I don't know what the original of the word Gannon is - it certainly isn't an Irish spelling.

Tuath Dé Danann is from the ancient Irish Book of Invasions. It means "The People of the Goddess Danu". Dé is related to the word Dia, which means God.

Fionn Mac Cumhaill was the hero of many Irish tales and this is anglicised lots of ways: as Fin M'Coul, or as Finn McCool, or as Fingal (as in Fingal's Cave).

Knockmany is an anglicised version of Cnoc mBáine and is in Tyrone. Cape Clear is Oileán Chléire in Irish and it is in Cork. I have never heard of Knockgrafton but again it is an anglicised version of some Irish original (or perhaps just a fictional name).

Andrew Coffey is an ordinary English version of an Irish name. In Irish it would be Aindriú Ó Cofaigh or Aindriú Ó Cobhthaigh (in modern and older spelling). Coffey is a common name in Cork (some of my relatives were called Coffey) and also quite common among the Irish travelling people.

King Hugh Curucha of Tir Conal apparently stands for Aodh Crochta (Hanged Hugh) and the Tir Conal is Tír Chonaill (the land of Conall) in the modern spelling, which is Donegal in the north west of Ireland.

Hope that's OK. By the way, your English is really good - you'll have to learn Irish next! All the best and Щасти вам! Seán.

Re: Proper names in Irish fairy tales

Bess — Thu, 07 Oct 2010 15:55:16 GMT

Still thanks for bothering to look up a Ukrainian phrase, really. The Ukrainian language has better positions here than Irish in Eire, but nonetheless it's greatly suppressed by Russian. So wonderful to know that someone, even so distant, cares.

I couldn't find any fairy tales in Irish, so I'll go on with those Jacob's names. Explain me, please, the usage of an (like in Shee an Gannon), de (Tuatha de Dannan, is it someway close to Spanish de?). Is M` (Fin M`Coul) a short for mac?

Then, I guess, Fair, Brown and Trembling are translations. As well as Knockmany, Knockgrafton, Cape Clear (these are obviously toponyms). Any chance they are wrong ones?

I'll top all these with Andrew Coffey, king Hugh Curucha of Tir Conal and be done.

Duzhe dyakuyu or Go raibh cead maith agat, you're of very much help.