Buntús Cainte learners

Re: Translation question

seano — Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:00:32 GMT

Hi Dale, Now, this has opened a can of worms! It shows how important dialect is and how even basic things can be different in different parts of the country. Basically, páistí is the usual word for children in the North. In the south, leanaí is the more common term. Many words in Irish derive from Norman French, either directly or through middle English, and the word páiste is linked to the English page, as in page boy. Leanbh is a native word. Another borrowed word is garsún. This comes from French garcon, as you say. In some dialects, na garsúin means the children (in general), while in Ulster Irish, our version of it, gasúr, always refers to boys. Buachaill also means boy but usually refers to a teenage boy, while gasúr is a young boy. There is also a word stócach, which means a teenage boy but is very often used these days to mean "boyfriend". And then clann is used to mean "children". Cad é mar atá do chlann? means "how are your children?" A lot of learners think that clann means family, but it doesn't. Family is teaghlach, while clann only refers to children. A very young child is a naíon, or babaí. Hope this clarifies it. The Bible is a good way of learning the language, especially if you learn passages off by heart. Ádh mór leis!

Re: Translation question

Dale D — Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:53:35 GMT

Speaking of familial terms....

For some time now, I've been curious about the term "páistí" ever since I found the Seanfhocal here on the website that went, "Ní hé lá na báistí lá na bpáistí." (A rainy day is not a day for children.) That was the first time I had encountered that term for "children".

My previous reading had introduced me to "leanbh" "child" and to the plural, "leanaí" "children". Now I find out that there is not one but two additional forms for the word "children"; "clann" and "páistí".

So, what are the technical differences between these terms? When are they used? I found an Irish translation of the Bible online and have been doing some side-by-side reading with the KJV, and I've noticed the use of the term "clann" is exclusively used in phrases like "the children of Israel" "clann Iosrael". Is there any connotative aspect of this term that applies it better when speaking of "descendants" than either of the other terms?

What would be the conditions where you would want to use the term "páistí" instead of "leanaí"? Or is it a preference of personal choice? Or are they perhaps regional terms, where one is favored in one area over the other?

I had a similar question regarding a term for "boy" that I found in "Teach Yourself Irish"; the term they gave was "garsún", which intrigued me since it is so close to the French "garçon", however all my other reading has shown "buachaill" to be far and away the preferred term, but again I don't know if I'm reading more into that than I should. Are there regional preferences, or is one word perhaps more "formal" than another? I know in some places the French term "garçon" is used for "waiter" as referring to a male person who waits a table. Any such use for "garsún"?

Thanks for helping me keep my family terms straight!

Dale

Re: Translation question

seano — Fri, 25 Jan 2013 20:12:11 GMT

Hi, Well, that sort of depends how you use it. Not at all might be used in contexts like this:

You'd think he'd be sorry, but not at all!

Shílfeá go mbeadh brón air, ach is léir nach raibh!

He wasn't at all sorry!

Ní raibh sé brónach ná baol air!

Thank you so much! Not at all!

Go raibh míle maith agat! Ná habair é!

On the other hand, if someone asked you if you were cold, (An bhfuil tú fuar?) you might answer:

Níl, ar chor ar bith!

So yes, sometimes, but it depends on what you're saying. Hope this helps!

Re: Translation question

celticlord88 — Fri, 18 Jan 2013 02:04:33 GMT

I also had a question related to translation so I went ahead and attached it to here instead of create a new topic. Would it be correct if I said Níl ar chor ar bith if I wanted to say Not at all?

Re: Translation question

seano — Sat, 08 Jan 2011 18:37:37 GMT

Hi Mary, This is a bit of a can of worms! First of all, there is the use of personal numbers. Many speakers of Irish get them wrong. Here they are (correct according to the Caighdeán) with the words mac and cailín.

aon mhac amháin

beirt mhac

triúr mac

ceathrar mac

cúigear mac

seisear mac

seachtar mac

ochtar mac

naonúr mac

deichniúr mac

Note that the one and two forms put séimhiú (h) on the following word. Mac is the genitive plural form of son (i.e. it means "of sons").

aon chailín amháin

beirt chailíní

triúr cailíní

ceathrar cailíní

cúigear cailíní

seisear cailíní

seachtar cailíní

ochtar cailíní

srl.

Now, many people look at phrases like beirt fhear, triúr mac and assume that the singular is used, because the singular of a first declension masculine noun has the same form as the genitive plural. But sometimes the nominative singular and the genitive plural are different (cailín, cailíní) so forms like "triúr cailín" or "beirt mhúinteoir" are incorrect. The correct forms are triúr cailíní, beirt mhúinteoirí, ceathrar páistí. However, having said this, it would be wrong to be too dogmatic about these things, because to confuse the issue, in some dialects of Irish, the genitive plural of words like cailín is the same as the nominative singular. (Hence Myles na Gopaleen - in modern standard Irish this should be Myles na gCapaillíní - Myles of the Little Horses - but na Gopaleen/na gCapaillín represents the way it would be said in Donegal Irish).

The other worm in our can is the use of the word clann. Everyone thinks this means family, and that "Cá mhéad duine atá i do chlann?" is the correct way to say "How many people are in your family?" Clann really means children. A better way of saying it is "Cá mhéad (duine) atá i do theaghlach?"

I hope this makes sense to you!

Re: Translation question

mary Dugan — Fri, 07 Jan 2011 14:58:36 GMT

Hello,

Questions on Jan 6 word of day, Páiste ( child ) Can you provide clarification on referring to children in one's family, ie Clann for referring to family members, numbers used when referring to people ( duinne, beirt, triúr..), amháin (just one). Are these all acceptable words to say how many children are in a family?

Mary

Re: Translation question

mary Dugan — Fri, 07 Jan 2011 14:48:28 GMT

Hi Michelle,

Comhghairdeas on the Award! !! I'm enjoying a slow, enjoyable and somewhat steady pursuit of an teanga gaeilge thanks to Talk Irish. I'm having difficulty in posting a comment on the Word a Day. It would be such good parctise. I can view the comments, bu can find the spot to add my own.

Re: Translation question

mary Dugan — Sun, 14 Nov 2010 14:37:44 GMT

Michelle,

Thanks so much for the explanation. One Intro to irish Grammar had Tá sí fuar, so I was confused. I now see that sí is only required to indicate the gender of personal pronouns. She or he. Thanks for the heads up on the various exceptions to look out for!

Mary

Re: Translation question

seano — Sun, 14 Nov 2010 07:08:01 GMT

Hi Mary, First of all, thanks for the positive feedback. Chelle and Mehdi and the team have worked very hard to make this into a great resource for Irish learning and it's always good to know that people are using and enjoying that resource.

Now, with regard to the word aimsir, as you rightly say, it is feminine - it has a genitive with na: réamhaisnéis na haimsire is the weather forecast. And you are also right about the f being confusing. One Celtic scholar (whose name escapes me) used to rail against the folly of using the f in dictionaries, calling it "f an mhearbhaill" (the F of confusion). As for the use of "sé" in phrases like "Tá sé ag cur", "Tá sé gaofar", "Tá sé préachtach fuar", it is always masculine in constructions like this, because the "it" in question is not the weather specifically but some abstract entity or state of affairs.

Incidentally, there are also cases in Irish where people use sí instead of sé for grammatically masculine nouns - the word carr is grammatically masculine but will often be "sí" in Irish (An bhfaca tú an carr nua? Tá sí gleoite, nach bhfuil?) Others would include bicycles (Flann O'Brien fans take note), boats, watches, books, etc.

Re: Translation question

mary Dugan — Sat, 13 Nov 2010 13:42:58 GMT

Hello,

I love the website and MP3 Búntus Cainte lessons. I have a question about the gender of aimsir ( weather). Two books I have , list it as Ainmfhocal baininscneach (feminine). One book I havae lists it as firinschneach ( masculine). I imagine there could be some confusion with the Irish abbrev for masculine being f. I have seen an t-úrlár, an t-arán, an aimsir., which makes me think aimsir is baininscneach. Lesson One used Tá sé fuar, rather than Tá sí fuar,. I'd like to know which is correct or is it not that critical.

Go raibh maith agat.

Re: Translation question

seano — Thu, 28 Oct 2010 18:22:14 GMT

Haigh,

Coileáinín is fine too, but doesn't mean exactly the same as puppy. A puppy in Irish is coileán, which means a little hound. The -ín at the end is yet another diminutive, so it means a little puppy. There is a good reason for not giving forms like coileáinín as the basic form - almost any noun in Irish can have -ín added to it. You can talk about a cairrín (a little car) or a scoilín (a little school) but you won't normally find these words in the dictionary, unless it is a word like cailín where the ín is now an intrinsic part of the word and not perceived as an add-on. So in Ó Dónaill's dictionary, coileán is given while coileáinín isn't. The Collins Gem dictionary gives coileáinín as the translation for puppy in the English-Irish section, but then gives coileán but not coileáinín in the Irish-English section!

Not that I have anything against the Collins dictionary - it's pretty comprehensive, generally very accurate and excellent value at the price, even if it is inconsistent on this particular point.

Re: Translation question

Hewitt — Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:08:32 GMT

Thanks!

It was exactly what I was looking for! You were very helpful

I'm eager to learn irish more quickly; I just love it.

Re: Translation question

jamesie — Wed, 27 Oct 2010 08:14:22 GMT

Hello,

Pet would simply be peata.

And according to english-irishdictionary website, puppy is coileáinín

Re: Translation question

seano — Wed, 27 Oct 2010 08:12:00 GMT

Hi, thanks very much for that! We do our best.

Now, the word for pet is very similar to the English word. It's peata. This cannot be an Irish word, because no ancient Irish words begin with the letter p, but it doesn't seem to be a borrowing from English either, because if I remember correctly, it crops up in Old Irish a long, long time before there was any English influence in the country. It is pronounced patta.

The usual Irish word for a puppy is coileán, (kullyaan), which is a derivative of cú meaning hound. I think this is the origin of the English first name Colin. Hope this helps!

Translation question

Hewitt — Mon, 25 Oct 2010 08:25:23 GMT

Hi,

First of all, I want to congrats the website and the people involved. It's very useful and interesting. I've been looking for a proper translation for 'pet' or maybe for 'puppy'.

Can anybody help me?

thanks a lot,

Hugo