Irish Proverb 359 - Seanfhocail Ghaeilge 359

re: Irish Proverb 359 - Seanfhocail Ghaeilge 359

seano — Wed, 22 Feb 2012 18:45:30 GMT

Hi Dale, You are absolutely right about these cases, but this is far from indiscriminate. The only two places it happens are the ones you have mentioned, as far as I can think. For example, féin is almost always pronounced as hayn, especially in the north. (The only exception is the name of the party, Sinn Féin). And I would never pronounce the f in dhéanfainn, or bhrisfeá, or chuirfeadh sé, or déanfaidh mé, or caithfidh siad. But in every other case, the f is pronounced. You can't say Fhág an mála ansin for Leave the bag there, or Níl sin fhíor for That's not true. So well spotted on that!

re: Irish Proverb 359 - Seanfhocail Ghaeilge 359

Dale D — Wed, 22 Feb 2012 18:40:54 GMT

I am noticing a series of times when an "f" seems to be lenited, or dropped from pronounciation, when spoken, when by the rules as I understand them, I wouldn't expect them to be. This seanfhocail is an example.

In the spoken version, the "f" in "féin" is dropped, even though it is not lenited in the spelling. I've noticed this in a couple of other places while listening to Irish, specifically in the words to some music, the song "Maidín i mBéarra".

Two of the lines go like this:

Do righfinn saor ó ana-broid an tláis,

Do thabharfainn droim le scamallaibh an tsaoil seo,

In the first line, the "f" in righfinn is pronounced, comes out "ree-finn". However, in the second line, the "f" in thabharfainn is dropped, and comes out "ha'ar-inn".

Could someone please clue me in? Is there a special rule, such as "f" following "r", or something like that?

Thanks.

Dale D.

re: Irish Proverb 359 - Seanfhocail Ghaeilge 359

Dale D — Wed, 22 Feb 2012 18:34:00 GMT

I seem to be hearing this more and more as I listen to and pay attention to Irish pronounciations....

In this seanfhocail, the voice speaking it lenites (or seems to lenite) the "f" in "féin" at the end of the sentence. I have noticed a couple of other incidents of an "f" being dropped, or effectively lenited, when the text of the sentence or structure doesn't seem to indicate or support that.

Another example is listening to a group singing "Maidín i mBéarra", which I have on a CD. A couple of lines go:

"Do righfinn saor ó ana-broid an tláis,

Do thabharfainn droim le scamallaibh an tsaoil seo,"

In the first line, the pronounciation includes the "f" in "righfinn" (comes out ree-finn) which I would expect, but in the next line the "f" seems to be lenited in thabharfainn (comes out har-inn) which I didn't expect. Is there some rule about "f" in particular that allows it to be dropped in certain cases? Or do some people just indiscriminately drop the "f"?

Clue me in, please?

Dale D